Ep 98: The Balance of Creative Collaboration with PJ Towle
Leveraging Partnerships to Enhance Your Creative Process
SUMMARY
In this episode, host Dustin Pead speaks with PJ Towle of Forty: Three Creative about the power of creative collaboration and partnerships. They discuss how building genuine relationships with other creatives leads to better outcomes, happier clients, and a stronger creative industry. PJ shares insights on selecting the right partners, setting clear expectations, and maintaining healthy collaborative relationships throughout projects.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
⚡️ Partnership goes deeper than collaboration, speaking to longevity rather than just a moment. Building partnerships allows creatives to focus on their strengths while delegating tasks they don't enjoy or excel at.
⚡️ The creative industry thrives when we help each other win instead of competing. There's plenty of opportunity for everyone when we don't gatekeep and instead build each other up.
⚡️ Successful creative partnerships start with good communication. Before discussing any other expectations, establish how you'll communicate, what channels you'll use, and what language will mean what.
NOTABLE QUOTES
💬 "Partnership is a really fascinating word, even deeper than collaboration, because it speaks to longevity. It doesn't speak to just like a moment." - PJ Towle
💬 "We help each other win that way. It's not me versus you... There is plenty of opportunity out there for everybody in the creative space to make their money. We don't need to be in competition with each other." - PJ Towle
💬 "Continue building into our strengths and find people that are better at the things that we're weak at. If we can do that in relationship and in partnership and in collaboration creatively, I think that's a win-win-win for me, for my collaborator, and for the client." - PJ Towle
EPISODE RESOURCES
⚡️ Connect with PJ Towle at fortythreecreative.com or email him at pj@fortythreecreative.com
⚡️ Subscribe to my weekly newsletter here
TRANSCRIPT
Are you tired of feeling like you have to do it all? And every part of the project solely rests on you. Today, I have a very special guest, PJ Towle of 43 creatives, talk about the balance of creative collaboration. Let's get into it.
Back to the podcast, everybody. My name is Dustin Pead, creative coach and consultant. I wanna remind you that I'm here to help creatives know themselves, their process, and their team so that they can create greater things together. We have a very special episode that I wanna dive right into. We're gonna have some resources for you at the end of it. So let's jump right in my conversation with PJ Towle of Forty:Three Creative.
So joining me now is Mr. PJ Towle of Forth:Three Creative. What up PJ? What's up guys? How are you? I'm good. I don't know how they're doing. They can't, I guess they can't hear me. It's not live. It's just you and me. It's just you and me right now, but later. Yeah. It's a bunch of us having this really awesome conversation. So PJ, great friend of mine, client of mine as well. Um, and, uh, I think PJ brings a unique perspective,
for a couple of reasons. Number one, um, it's another Enneagram four. So you don't just hear from this Enneagram for all the time. We're just going to say the same thing though. It's or probably, but you know how, like when your parents tell you the same thing over and over again, and then some other cool leader who's not your parents says this, says that same thing to you. You're like, Whoa, what? I've never heard that before. That's what today's going to be a lot like, or it's going to be like, this is the stuff that I say all the time, but now I got the cool.
like uncle coming in. Okay, okay. And he's gonna tell you the stuff and it's gonna be like, oh, wow, never thought about that way. I don't want to be like, yeah, see. Anyway, so today, we're gonna talk about the balance of creative collaboration. And we talked a little bit offline PJ about how we're going to use this phrase collaboration, kind of use it interchangeably with the phrase partnerships and you and I and some other creatives in our circle have been having conversations a lot about
partnerships, what does that just, let's just broadly start out there, what that means for, what that means to you and then why is it important for you to have partnerships when you're doing what you're doing? Yeah, I think partnership is a really fascinating word, even deeper than collaboration, because it speaks to longevity. It doesn't speak to just like a moment, you know?
I think we talked before about our similar backgrounds between being musicians and working for churches. And as a musician, you can collaborate with somebody on like a, you know, you can songwriter, you can collaborate in a moment or whatever, and do it as a one thing. But when you're making a commitment to somebody, you know, I wanna be in a band with you. I want to, I wanna.
date you and figure out if we're going to get married. You know, it's, it's a partnership where things start to build out that way. And it's not just a short term one-off project kind of situation, which collaboration can mean the depth of that partnership as well, but it doesn't necessarily always look at it that way. Right. And so you PJ and your work, just to backtrack a touch, cause I noticed I kind of jumped ahead. Cause I'm super excited to talk to you about this, but just to back up a touch.
Just give everybody just a brief elevator pitch about what you do. I tell everybody you're fractional CMO, but for those who don't know what that is or creatives are not quite in that marketing side of the circle, what is it that you do? Yeah. So as a fractional CMO, uh, I use the term creative director because it kind of lessens. Yeah. Everybody gets it. It lessens the hype behind it or the like,
pomp and circumstance, but being behind being a C level type of person or whatever. But yeah, so I take, I take on partnerships with my clients that are, my hope is to go deeper with those clients and do a lot for a few number of people versus doing, I'm sorry. Yes. I just said that right. It's doing a lot for a few people rather than doing a little bit for a lot of people. And so in that, my goal is to always build out long-term partnerships.
for creative direction, for strategy, for brand initiatives, for campaigns, for marketing, for video. We have partners for video. There's all those different kinds of moving parts. It's not just always the creative stuff, which is the stuff that we all like the best. Right. But when you get into those partnerships, you got to do the work. Yeah, and so I'd love to hear more about your heart behind.
like why other creatives should care about partnerships. I mean, you and I, and I think this conversation goes pretty kind of on point with the way we're all feeling post-COVID, no matter what age bracket or generation you find yourself in. But specifically in the way that we've been talking behind the scenes, PJ, about partnerships and
Oh, I know a person that can do this and you should talk to them and that kind of partnership and how we could all kind of be serving the same client from multiple different angles. Why is that important? Do you think for all of us to consider? I think the biggest reason that it's so important is because we help each other win that way. It's, it's not me versus you. It's not me versus another designer or another fractional CMO, because not every partnership is right. You know,
Um, not every, every relationship that you end up in in your life turns into a lifelong one. It might just be for a particular season. And so by recognizing that early in conversations, I can say to my buddy Josh, who's also a fractional CMO, Hey man, this might be a better fit for you than it is for me. Why don't you go talk to so and so, um, there is plenty, plenty of opportunity out there for everybody in the creative space to make their money.
Like we don't need to be in competition with each other. If we can help build each other up and not gatekeep, I think, I think we all end up winning. We all end up growing in the world looks better because of that. Right. It's, it's serving the industry as a whole, bypassing those things along. And what I want to clarify too here is that we're not just talking about partnerships in terms of like,
Hey, if you're a designer, find other designers that you can pass work along to that you don't want to do or doesn't fit for you. But it's also like, hey, if you're a layout designer and someone's asking you for web design work or print design work or things like that, like, can you like different types of, you know, avenues there? Can you recommend somebody else to come in or hey, I'd like to collaborate just to get back to the title of the podcast. I like to collaborate with this other person. It's like.
For example, I won't give the details, but PJ and I are collaborating right now on a client for a specific thing that I know that he knows better than me, but I know the client better than he does. And so we are collaborating right now on trying to get the biggest win for the client. It gives PJ a great introduction to the client. It helps me look good to the client because I'm bringing in experts and I'm coordinating the logistics and they don't have to worry about all those types of things. There's a benefit in that.
that type of collaboration. So let's kind of just go, okay, now that we've painted the why, let's talk about how do we get into these partnerships and collaborations, PJ. What qualities, when you're looking for somebody that you either want to recommend or partner with, what qualities make a great creative partner? Yeah, I think the thing that I jump to first is do I like spending time with this person, like being around them.
Are they somebody that I could go grab a beer and wings with and, and walk away feeling, not to use all the forwards, but you know, to, to, to walk away feeling heard and seen and it was a mutually beneficial experience. Right. And when we walk into all of the relationships that way at the beginning, to me, it sets a basis for we're friends first. Right. And I think sometimes we walk into it going.
Oh, this could benefit me financially. This could benefit them financially. And then we get stuck on a dollar amount or a bottom line or a revenue stream or something that becomes more of a problem. But if we're walking into it caring about the person first, caring about the relationship first, then I think a lot of that stuff gets easier down the road because we've built and established a relationship on trust. Got you. Yeah, I totally, totally agree. How.
We talked a little bit about kind of here are some scenarios where you could bring some partner in, but what are some, what are some potential areas that you've seen this as you're in the marketing space? I think of fractional CMOs and don't take this the wrong way, but I think of fractional CMOs is usually they're, they're great creative visionaries, but Jack of all trades, but usually master of very, very few, which if we're, if we're honest, that's a lot of us in the fields.
And if we're even more vulnerable, a lot of us, we talk about offline a lot, a lot of us that have come out of the church world, the ministry world have a lot of that experience too because we had to, it was out of necessity that we had to be a jack of all trades in the creative arts world, right? So, but what are potential collaborators in the creative space for you? Or how have you seen those things come together? Yeah, I have very quickly identified that I do not love
sometimes all of the detail that goes into editing video. So I can do it, but it takes me way longer than it takes my video guy, you know? So I can collaborate with him and hand things off to him and he can process through those things. One of the things that you and I have been talking through even specifically on that front is the proofing, the typos.
the, you know, like you noticed that in processes that I go through is all the number of reviews that are involved. Like let me give creative direction, let me hand it off. Let me QC quality check right at the very end and then we can move on. Those are ideal situations, but photography is another one. Web design is another one. Layout, you mentioned layout design.
I love branding, I love making logos, I love building culture with companies and working their internal language that then informs their external language. So if I can sit in that seat with people and then bring other people in to kind of backfill some of those other processes, I think that's the best, those are the best types of ways for me to do it. But that might not be the case for a video guy. Might not be the case for.
a strategy guy, you know, might be really great at strategy, but he might not be great at sales and client communication. So he might need a partner on that. Yeah, I think the thing that we talk a lot about in our sessions, PJ, and that I talk with a lot of my clients about in the coaching sessions is what are the things that only you can do and the things that have the most value. It's a little bit of that Dan Martell, time and energy audit, buy back your time book kind of situation where it's like,
things that you only you can do and the things that are your that bring you the greatest amount of energy and the greatest amount of joy those are the things that we want to develop your schedule and your kind of ideal week around and everything else are things that we or the conversations we're having right now is what can we put through the focus funnel which if you don't know the focus funnel it's very simple it's just stuff that all the tasks that are on your plate a lot of the things that
There are things that only you can do and you should do, but everything else you can either eliminate, automate, or delegate. And those are areas. I think you put all three of those words together to say, I did, I did. Autogate, autogate, autogate, I like it. Autoglate, maybe that was it. I like it, I like it. But you can eliminate, automate, or delegate these tasks. And so what are some opportunities there for you to do that, to free up your time, to do the things that only you can do and the things that bring you them.
bring you the most energy and then add the most value to your organization. A lot of business coaches will say like, Hey, once you got your business running the way you run it to want it to run, and you can be a solopreneur and still have it run this way. But essentially, at the end of the day, you should be you should be selling and innovating. Those are the two things that at the end of the day that really at the top of the
I, this is my business has got my name on it. These are the things that I can really bring to the table. I need to be selling it and I need to be innovating it so that can we always be growing. Let's move on to expectations. So we've brought some people into the mix now. We've kind of put them through the filter of, okay, yes, you're a good partner to work with. You said it, like we often say, I wanna work with people that I can enjoy a beer with, whether that's beer, coffee, whatever. Yeah, right. Great meal. It doesn't matter.
someone that you can hang out with and enjoy that time hanging out with them and not feel like it's an obligation to hang out with them. Right. But now that you've got that, you've got them as a part of the project, or you you've handed a project, probably, let's just say, this isn't something you're going to hand off. This is something that you're going to work together on. What are some, let's talk about some expectations. What are some clear conversations to have about these collaborations before you even get started on the work? Yeah, I think the first communication or the first conversation is about communication. You have to.
set expectations on what communication is going to look like. The way you just reacted, I think you've said that a few times. No, I haven't. I was like, it was a little bit of a proud coach moment, but also just like, man, that's so good. The first piece of communication is communication. Before all the other expectations, how are we going to be able to talk to each other? If I say this, are you going to understand what I mean? Yeah.
bringing them up to speed on the client, then bringing you up to speed on the client or the project at hand, right? All that stuff. Yeah, I think even all the way down to like, what channels are you gonna use? I am horrible with text messages when it comes to business stuff. I don't know why that is. I think I just think of my phone as more of a personal thing. And so when I'm not sitting at my computer, if a text message comes in that's work related, it's really hard for me to respond to that.
And most of the time, then I accidentally click on it, and then I come back to my computer and I forget to respond to it, and it gets lost, and it's a whole extra thing, right? So even all the way down into the channels of how you're gonna communicate, and the words that you're gonna use, and all of that, I think is so, so important. I think the next one after that is understanding responsibilities and roles. So, you know, my video partner is a perfect example. He knows I can do video, but.
I hired him to do video. Or I'm bringing him in to partner to do video, whatever that situation in a partnership looks like. So he can pick my brain, but I don't want to have to do it. And so we're clear about that up front. But then the same thing goes when he brings me in on a branding project or a website project. He has some of that same know-how as well. So understanding who is doing what, and then trying to stay clear with that.
all the way through, but again, comes back to communication and where we're talking and how we're talking. I think another one is how you, with all collaboration, with all partnerships, is how you handle disagreements, is a conversation to have upfront to set an expectation of that. So we're not always gonna like the same colors. We're not gonna always think that the words are.
uh, think we need to use the same words. We're going to have different ideas and different focuses and different plans. And so if we can discuss that upfront, um, then that's going to really, really help clarify things down the road. And then it's a continual conversation when we get to it of a, Hey, this isn't about you. This is about the product. This is about the project. This is about making sure that our client is getting what they want because it's their vision a lot of times. Right.
their vision, their product, their plan that we're trying to push out. So, and then I think boundaries is probably the other big one that sticks out in my brain of what things are on limits and off limits as far as time, as far as what can be spoken into by those certain people. But I think I also want somebody that's willing to call me on my stuff. Like. Yeah.
Like, oh, hey, I think you might be getting too into the weeds on that. Let's refocus. Oh, you're right. Have those kinds of conversations. And sometimes I think those are easier with business partners than they are with my wife. But I think when we go into everything with open-handed communication, I think that's the best way to set those expectations. Yeah, and just to wrap up the expectation topic as well, I think it's important that we talk
the timeframe, you know, we, we talk a lot about on this podcast and PJ is probably sick of hearing me say it, uh, now, but like, when is the D U E date versus the DO date? Right. So like, yes. When the client wants it March 31st. So then we're going to back up and we're going to give ourselves an internal deadline of let's say March 25th. That way we have some margin in there. Right. But then working with the other person too and going, Hey, they have their own set of.
ways of doing things, right? Maybe you're really productive in the morning and they're really productive in the evening and at night. And there's like, okay, when are we communicating about this thing? It's just finding that ebb and flow of that expectation of time, not only when is the whole thing DUE to the client, but also a time of like, hey, I'm gonna be working during these hours. I'm gonna be working during these hours. Great, so then in that case.
an instant chat situation is probably not going to work if there are two extremely different times a day. Maybe you'll just need to email me when I get back into the mode the next day, I'll hop in on the email and see. Now that's a long distance digital form of collaboration, which is mostly what we're talking about here today. But sometimes a collaboration is right there in the room in the moment together, which again, to honor everyone's time. Hey, this is going to be 90 minutes, we're gonna have a clear agenda up front.
We're going to know what next steps are on the other end of that. And we're going to take it from there. There there are there's time and space. I want to say this to the creative who's listening to this going like, Oh, man, you're putting too much structure around my collaboration. I like to get in there and feel it out and see what happens.
There is a time and a place for that. 100%. Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. You have to have it. It has to be a part of your regular kind of rhythm and grind to creating. What we're talking about here in this particular episode is when we're bringing in collaborations to execute the vision of one of our clients or execute the vision of this particular project that we have in front of us so that we can best serve the vision of that project. Not necessarily a creative.
kind of free for all jam session brainstorm situation, which again, very helpful, very much needed, but not what we're talking about here. Anything you would add to that, PJ? No, I think you hit it right on the head. The difference between a jam band and an orchestra is really, really different. And they all have their moments, they all have their placements, but figuring out how and when to notice those things is really important.
The jam band versus the orchestra. I'm going to have to make some, some products around that. So now we'll quickly go through this next part, part, because this is the part where I lean in the most typically the project management part of we're in, we're in it now. We've been collaborating on this thing. We're going back and forth. We got vision. We got, we got revisions.
We've got all those types of things. What are the kind of the key components for you PJ in this project management phase of collaboration that you've got to have? For me, it's having you on board and anybody that's listening should hire Dustin. I know it was not a setup, but it's so true. Even this morning, I was on a call with a client and putting him through the DUI and DO due dates frameworks in that conversation of.
This is, he's a, he's a coach as well and on something else. And so it's like, This is the day that this project needs to be delivered to your client. So when do you need to have your D O dates for all your pieces so that then I can take it and put it through my team situation and, you know, walking through all that, honestly, your process has helped me immensely in that. And so recognizing that upfront.
to establish workflows and processes and document everything moving forward is huge. I think the way to think about it, the visual I got when you were saying that, especially you quickly said like, hey, you do your part here so that I can do my part here. It's a bit of a handoff, a bit of a relay race. Absolutely. You know, or, you know, it's football handoff.
track and field relay race, just those analogies. If you think about it in that visual that we can't wait, if the project is due again, just go back to March 31st. I don't know why that day stands out in my head. It just does. It's the end of the quarter and I get a lot of stress around it. I don't know. But let's just say it's March 31st is when it's, we're supposed to hand this thing over to the client. If I, yeah, I, if, if you, if I can't do my part until you've done your part, right? Just in order of dependency, right? Like, hey,
this part is me and I can't do it until I have this thing from you, then we have, we have to be able to say, okay, well then I'm going to need that like before March 30th. So that I have more than a day before I have to give it to the client. Right. So it's, it's those types of, I say it all the time on here. It doesn't matter if you use sticky notes or a sauna or whiteboards or whatever this, the project management kind of system that you use.
It's just about a mentality shift of understanding that in order for all of us to get this done, then there are certain times when I'm going to need you to do this thing so that I can do this thing so that this next person on the list can do that thing long before it's DUE to the client. So that's all we'll say about project management. Let's get towards the end of this conversation and let me ask you, how do you know that it's been a success?
working with other creators and creatives in this kind of collaboration partnership model.
Well, you're asking another four. So how does everybody feel at the end of it? Everybody's like, what's the what's the general vibe? Are we happy? Are we? No, I think there's always a constant like I'm a I'm a tweaker. Like I love to like do something and then at the end of it, see what I can do better next time. And so I think.
Again, with the communication piece, I think that comes down to we can have that conversation with the client. Does the client feel like it was a successful launch of whatever product or piece that we're working on for them with their vision? That's a pretty good success or failure metric is if they're happy with it. If they're not happy with it, then okay, what do we need to do better to fix it so that we can relaunch it or so that next time we do something?
we do it right, you know? And that's thinking deeper on, you know, a partnership with a client type of level. But obviously there's financial metrics that you can pay attention to if that's what you're running after. But I think, to use a sports analogy, are we moving the ball down the field the same way? Right. With any project, with any situation? Is...
Was it a success? Would I want to do this project with someone else again, with the same person again? Would I need to bring someone else in for something else to make it run smoother? So it's constantly evaluating that, I think, is really important. The partnership health, you know, at the end of it, did I do 80% of the work, but I was only supposed to do 40% of the work? Right. Which again, comes back to expectations.
Yeah, I wanted to say there too on the partnership health, we talked in the beginning about kind of setting up those expectations with with each other as we're collaborating or with the group as we're collaborating, right. And just saying this is what I expect. This is what you expect. Let's lay it out on the table. You mentioned as we kind of wrapped up some of the project management piece, like it's just kind of cyclical, right. We constantly need to be going back and revisiting this. And I think going back and defining that relationship with with each other as collaborators.
Uh, post project is important as it is pre project pre project. There's a lot of logistics involved. Post project is, do we want to do this again? And what would we change differently if, if, and when that opportunity arises? Yeah. Way back in Oh seven, I was starting out in the design business, just freelance doing way back in Oh seven, it sounds so long ago, but, um, it was.
Yeah, so when I was, I was like three lifetimes ago, when I was starting out with that though, I fell into kind of a relationship with a friend that he was doing the same thing. He was freelancing at the same time. And I was like, Hey, will you look at this piece that I'm doing? And he asked me to do the same. We started brainstorming with each other, turned into a really great relationship to the point that we started a business together. Full on partnership. If you want to break it all down, it was an S corp, you know, that whole thing. But
Um, we did that for seven, eight years, something like that. And towards the end of it, he realized, because we were in constant communication, he realized he wanted to get out of the design phase, the design end of things where we were sharing some of that work. And, uh, he wanted to get into print, um, specifically school yearbook printing. Like apparently there's a really niche market for that and he figured it out and he liked it and so that's what he wanted it to do. And so.
Because we were constantly in those relationship conversations all the way through, there's no hard feelings. It's not like, hey, you're leaving me stranded. You're leaving me bankrupt or whatever. It was a complete open-ended evaluating that all the way through, even to the point that when we still talk now, he's like, man, I always felt bad because you were doing 80% of the work and I was doing 20% of the work. I was like, but that's how we figured it out. Like,
It's just what we did. It was part of it. It was constant communication, constant evaluation. So I think being open handed in that to just make such a huge difference to put people first rather than the business or the goals just helps a ton. Love it. Two things to close our conversation today. Number one, I want to ask if there's anything that we haven't talked about when this topic of collaboration or partnership.
I'd love for you to share that if you have anything else you want to share there. And then number two, what are some ways that we can encourage each other to start looking? What are some action steps that we can take to start looking for collaborators? Yeah. We've covered so much so fast, man. Like, I mean, I feel like you could do a whole series on this whole topic and break it all down. I think I don't think there's anything else to say, but just to reiterate, it all comes down to communication.
clarity of communication makes so much, so much of a difference all the way through in everything. Not just in business collaborations or partnerships or client relationships or your spouse or your kids or any of that, but it all connects. And then I think even too, and this ties into your second part of being honest with yourself on what you are.
good at what you like to do, what you don't like to do, what things you want to spend your time on. And if you are fooling yourself on any of that, it's gonna become pretty clear pretty quick. The second part of all that plays out into being just really in that being honest with yourself is taking, I think a really important next step would be take stock of what you're good at. What do you enjoy doing? What are things that you wish you could hand off?
It's some of the ideal week planning that we've been talking about. It's some of the moving parts of the focus funnel. But in those pieces, being able to say, yes, I can do this, but I really need to hand that off. And so I don't remember if it was John Maxwell or who it was, but we've always gotten told all the way along, work on your weaknesses.
Well, really what we need to do is continue building into our strengths and find people that are better at the things that we're weak at. And so if we can do that in relationship and in partnership and in collaboration creatively, I think that's a win-win-win for me, for my collaborator, and for the client.
Yeah, I'll just reiterate a point and extend further to PJ was saying is just kind of understanding what the what the gaps are. What do you really love doing? There's stuff that you have to do right now that you don't love doing that you can invite somebody else into that process. That's an area open for collaboration as well. I would say to to to just start looking around you in your community and where you're working at already.
to find those people, because you're like, I don't really even know where to find those people. I'm sure there are... They're everywhere. I'm sure there are online resources and chat rooms and Reddit threads and stuff like that, that you could hop on. But just start asking around in your community too, because more often than not, there's more in your community than you think that's there. It's one of the things I've learned in the last year, just kind of having conversations with different people. But great conversation, PJ. If someone wants to collaborate with you...
How do they reach out? Where can they find you at? You can find my website at 43creative.com. There's a contact form. My phone number is on there. You can get ahold of me that way. You can email me at PJ at 43creative.com. That's all spelled out, the word 43. 43 is spelled out, F-O-R-T-Y, right? Oh, yeah, because I forget we're not just video here. We're also people listening. Yeah, so PJ at F-O-R-T-Y.
T H R E E C R E A T I V E dot creative force. Dot com. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get real fancy. So yeah, I'm always happy to have those conversations because I think that, uh, the more that we can link arms and partner, not only do we help ourselves, but we help each other and we build a wall of creatives that way. That would be really hard to knock down when we're all working together that way.
Yeah, we build that we build the industry to and we said that towards the beginning, but just want to end with that as well. Like we don't it's not about competing. It's about building the industry. The industry is thriving that is good for everybody. So just remember that I want to just throw out a quick tool resource for those that are watching and listening. If there's some methods in here that we've talked about, especially around the the do versus due dates, the DO versus DUE dates, I have that free framework you can download
the tools button and free resources, all that stuff. You can find it there. But specifically, if you're just like, I don't really know how to kind of organize projects to begin with, much less breaking somebody else in to the process. I do have an ebook for 10 bucks. You can grab on the website. It's called Asana, Using Asana for Creative Teams. And again, I've saved this all the time. It doesn't matter if you're using Asana or Postnotes or a whiteboard. The concepts in it will teach you how to go from living in this marginless chaos
understanding some peace and margin and being able to get more done than you ever thought possible. So check that out. DustinPeed.com. PJ, thanks for being with us on this episode. I love it, man. Yeah, man. Glad to be here. Until next time. Until next time, we'll talk to you on Creativity Made Easy podcast. See y'all.